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LAN Party Forums => Hardware Discussion => Started by: .:F3ar0n:. on February 05, 2008, 02:57:44 PM
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So I'm sure that everyone here is no stranger to Lapping. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I consider myself a heavy overclocker. I live by the motto that if it ain't broken, keep on overclocking. It's what I feel I understand and do the best, so I'm always looking for a way to squeeze out another 100mhz from my cpu. So for a recent project, I have decided to void that CPU warranty to get my CPU to the highest possibly ever seen on air. For those who don't know what lapping is:
Lapping n: The process of sanding and polishing the CPU and heatsink to allow better contact and heat dissipation
The Theory:
When you lap a CPU, you are removing the very thin layer of aluminum from the CPU to have a copper base. That thin aluminum layer on the CPU was originally placed to protect the core (or cores in my case), however aluminum is not as good as a conductor vs copper. By removing the aluminum layer of the CPU, you are creating a completely smooth copper base which ultimately is the best in terms of heat dissipation. What you do for one however, you must do for the other to achieve maximum results. Though most heatsinks have a copper base to begin with (like my Zalman 9500) They are not entirely smooth and polished out of the box. By polishing both contacts of the CPU and heatsink, you achieve a copper on copper connection and increase heat disapation which ultimatly leads to lower cpu temperatures
The Materials:
To do this project, it doesn't cost more than about 6 bucks out of your own pocket along with a voided CPU warranty (if you cared about it which I don't since I'm gonna be OC'ing it like crazy anyways). You'll need the following
400 Grit Sandpaper
600 Grit Sandpaper
800 Grit Sandpaper
Metal Polish
Rags
The Process:
To start this project out, I must first get a few test of the average temps and load temps of my CPU. This data will be compiled into a graph which i'll make and upload later tomorrow when I'm finished. After removing the Heatsink and CPU, I will start by wiping off the thermal paste on both (using rubbing alcohol and cotton balls). I will start off by lapping the heatsink (which is a Zalman 9500)
I first started out with 400 grit sandpaper. Sanding back and fourth for about 10 minutes, It appears that all I was doing was scratching the heatsink (which technically I was) . I then went from 400 to 600 grit and continued sanding for about 15 minutes. Finally I was seeing some dull reflections, but not the results I was hoping. After going to the 800 grit sandpaper and sanding for about 20 minutes, I saw some decent reflections of my hand. I used a sock (it had wholes in it so it's no good..LOL) and polish and took about 15 minutes polishing it up. This was my result
(http://a349.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/102/l_2cf7109efbeed2e7e32ae919c168e7fc.jpg)
(http://a706.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/61/l_5c53a2074bb67b0fe21ec34d96b50571.jpg)
I apologize for the pics being not as high quality as I would of liked, however I have no real digital camera at the moment so thats the best I could do
In anycase, you can see that there is a smooth polished reflection in the heatsink (better be since I sanded and polished the thing for an hour). I will be doing the CPU later tomorrow and will take pics and post the results in temps and my highest stable CPU clock.
I'm tired now so I'll post up the rest of my project tomorrow.
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you'll have to share your results cause i may be interested in doing this to my q6600. My heatsink was lapped when i bought it. I had to pay an additional $17 but i thought it might help.
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yeah def a good idea for the heatsink. I'm hearing an average of 8c lapping the quads. Once I get mine done, I'll post up the results. I'm gonna say that it'll be about a 6c difference lapped. 6c though is a good bit when it comes to OC'ing (your talking another 150mhz easy you can go up on) My goal is to try to reach 3.4-3.5 range maxed on air which i feel is pretty dang on good (staying under 65 on load)
I'll find out tomorrow as I need to go out and get more sand paper before taking on the cpu
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I have done this with my own systems and a few of my customers. Looks like you did a nice job F3ar0n.
I actually had a customer that left the plastic cover on his heatsink, and put it on his CPU and used the computer like that for months. When he brought it in the shop it was randomly rebooting (due to heat), and when I found what he did I busted out laughing. This guy came in the shop talking the talk, like he knew everything, and then to see an error like this was very humorous. Anyway I had no choice but to lap this heatsink and CPU to dissolve the heat issue he was experiencing.
Later,
Petch
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Continuing where I left off..I took a good hour and half but the results which was worth it. I pretty much did the same thing to the CPU as I did with the heatsink earlier. Here are my results
(http://a878.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/52/l_6484f013ecbcc6e0eeebc26d5ae0be0d.jpg)
(http://a727.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/8/l_37dabaf5173c0351cc22e5c805bc45d6.jpg)
I originally checked my temps with Core Temp (To me the best program to use to see your true cpu temps)
Here was my original:
Idle: 30c
Load: 42c
Here are my new temps with my lapped CPU (again according to CPU-Z)
Idle: 23c
Load: 32c
So as you can see...my temp differences are fairly huge. You can see that there is a 7 degree difference on idle with lapping and a whopping 10 degrees on load. Those type of temp differences are sure to see a good 200mhz higher oc vs stock cpu's. If anyone is interesting in Lapping and need some help getting started, let me know. I can give you some good tips on how to make your lapping experience a successful one.
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Latest update:
Oc'd to 3.2. Cooling is at 30 on idle and 42 on load. Think I'll leave it there at nice cool temps for now but it's 100% rock solid after a 3 hour orthos test and multiple benches of 3dmark and such
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You shined that thing up real nice. So even if you do lapping, I assume you still have to add some thermal compound? (i.e. Arctic Silver)
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yes...I added Artic Silver 5 (since it's practically the best thing to use). Pics would of turned out so much cooler if I didn't have to take them with a cell phone. Oh wells. IMO def worth doing if you have nothing else better to do on a sat night and dont' mind about 2 hours of sanding to achieve a 8c difference in temps...
I'm running rock solid at 3.2 at only 42c and I know if I wanted to push it I could hit 3.6 and still be under 60 load if I wanted to push it (only thing stopping me is...why do it? I mean 3.2 is crazy fast on a c2d and I like running cool inside my case)
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Are you ever going to watercool? I am curious as to see how cold it would get then.
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ehh..I had a sweet liquid cooled rig...but it was somewhat a pain to maintain (buy coolant and so on) and the pump died on me during the 150 lan 2 years ago (I was trying to find a place that sold a 939 cpu cooler around Mech-Burgh and we had the whole thing torn apart about half way through the event)
Anyways, after that experience, I decided to stay away. I would think about going back but I dont mind the loud sound of fans. Any OC'ing I plan on doing can do on air without any probs (just talked to a friend today who says he knows someone who spent a month but got his Q6600 to 3.8 on air...and stable. This is from a friend of mine who knows what he's talking about so its true)
Anyways prob won't happen unless I get a normal case to put it in (cause the fridge PC is a pain to tear apart and put back together)
(http://b3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00596/38/96/596076983_l.jpg)
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what program are you using to run the procs on load
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Orthos for now...does both cores 100% load and hasn't really failed me yet
http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/385/
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do your temps change when using prime95?
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IDK...let me check it out...I'll get back to you in like 10 min
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temps get to 42 but stays close to the same between orthos and prime95 for me. Why do you ask?
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I just wondered cause your temps totally destroy mine and I thought i had descent temps. at the LAN i ran prime95 and my temps were between 51 and 54c at load.
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Yeah, my proc temps stay between 40 and 45 under full load on air as well. What are you using for CPU cooling?
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thermalright ultra 120 extreme. with a panaflo 2750rpm 120mm fan/ artic silver ceramique
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Hmmm....here's a few Q's for ya...Do you have the fan pulling air off the HS or have it pushing air through it? I will assume you checked to make sure it's making full contact with the proc. What about exhaust? Is it sufficiant? Oh yeah wait, you have that monster fan on top don't you?
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well naturally quad cores run a good bit hotter than core 2 duo's but even so 54 load is somewhat high. Your oc'd to 3ghz right? how's your fans hooked up for power...I know the higher end panaflo fans (like the 2 80mm 45cfm ones I have) dont get enough power off the mobo vs off an ATX.
In my opinion, 55c is hot , but its still ok and well within safe limits (like i said...quad cores are rated up to 71c. Most quads actually run around 60s load with stock heatsinks (at 2.4 may I mind you and not oc'd to 3ghz). I just hate running a cpu that hot even if it can take it. Mainly because it will make everything in your case extremely hot will lead to higher temps on the video card and memory if you dont have efficient cooling
We should get together and have a Lapping party (i know..it sounds dirty but its not...LOL) Get that cpu and heatsink smooth and shiny and watch your temps drop to 40s (the biggest success stories I'm hearing come from the quads since they run so hot out of box...they drop the most...like 8-10c!)
Here's a link you may wanna check out
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/quad_core_youre_so_hot
I mean now that I did it...I'll never buy another processor and not Lap it before install. Mainly because the difference is so much. I mean look at what decepticon said..he's getting 40-45 on load at 2.66. With my lapped cpu, I'm getting 42 on load and i'm oc'd to 3.2ghz..thats a half a gig higher and I still am hitting lower temps
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Circle Lapping......eeeewwww. I think I may do that sometime in the future, but I just don't feel like taking all that apart and cleaning it and working....and having to move....blah blah blah.....but I will evetually cause now I am bent on getting my temps down, even though they aren't high, I still think I can get it cooler. Hell I was even contemplating taking a dryer vent (long flexible tube) and running it outside int the winter and have it hooked to my intake fan. Now THAT will cool yer temps!
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So why don't manufacturers just sell parts already lapped? With a ton of focus going into cooling these days you'd think they would have caught on by now. Are they some risks involved (besides, as in my case, not knowing how to safely take a processor off a motherboard)?
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Hell I was even contemplating taking a dryer vent (long flexible tube) and running it outside int the winter and have it hooked to my intake fan. Now THAT will cool yer temps!
I am right there with you since when I went outside this morning it was 14 degrees... lol.
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Hell I was even contemplating taking a dryer vent (long flexible tube) and running it outside int the winter and have it hooked to my intake fan. Now THAT will cool yer temps!
I am right there with you since when I went outside this morning it was 14 degrees... lol.
It'd cool better than liquid IMO.
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So why don't manufacturers just sell parts already lapped? With a ton of focus going into cooling these days you'd think they would have caught on by now. Are they some risks involved (besides, as in my case, not knowing how to safely take a processor off a motherboard)?
reason being is that the aluminum layer that is on the top of the cpu is made to protect the core (and or cores in my cause) from damage by heatsink. There is a risk that you can damange your cpu if you lap it, but in all honesty you'd only kill the thing if your an idiot and decided to sand for 2 hours and go right through the core. Thats really the only risk and the chances of you messing something up is slim to none
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Not to mention the extra cost that would be added to the manufacturing process. I'd rather lap it myself and save a few bucks.
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reason being is that the aluminum layer that is on the top of the cpu is made to protect the core (and or cores in my cause) from damage by heatsink. There is a risk that you can damange your cpu if you lap it, but in all honesty you'd only kill the thing if your an idiot and decided to sand for 2 hours and go right through the core. Thats really the only risk and the chances of you messing something up is slim to none
It doesn't sound like that bad of an idea at all! I'm sure someone out there could figure out a way to lower the risk with proper installation of the thermal paste and heatsinks.
Not to mention the extra cost that would be added to the manufacturing process. I'd rather lap it myself and save a few bucks.
Wouldn't cost less? If there's one less layer you need to add to the process then the cost should go down a few pennies per, correct?
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It would cost more in two ways:
They would have to re-manufacture their metal dies to make the HS's (for all companys) to produce them with a few microns less of aluminum. And proc manufacturers would have to do the same.
And like Sully said, the extra manufacturing process to get them lapped would pass the extra cost to the consumer.
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And on top of that the CPU was designed to be durable and run at it's given speed... They know people OC but don't warranty it.
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Think Sully hit on the big reason why...The cost for them to make the copper into a finish product would yeld to more money and longer production times
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Think Sully hit on the big reason why...The cost for them to make the copper into a finish product would yeld to more money and longer production times
But aren't companies supposed to be for the consumer?
hehe
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If by consumer, you mean the almighty (or rather lately, weak and miserable) dollar, then yes! Absolutely!
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but Sully what you got there..McDonald's double cheeseburger from the dollar menu?
Dollar's lookin strong...Dollar's looking real strong...Sorry had to say it
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Or the "stuff" that double cheeseburger is made from is REALLY cheap. lol
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I had two for lunch yesterday... uh oh. No more dollar there...