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Author Topic: Uh?  (Read 1571 times)

Offline vincegun

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Offline wallzy

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 07:01:53 PM »
i wish i had another option for my interent provider. screw comcast

Offline decepticon

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2010, 08:19:45 AM »
i wish i had another option for my interent provider. screw comcast

You and me both.  I REALLY want Fios, but they won't expand their fiber to our neck of the woods.  Which to me is absurd since they expanded to some backwoods areas that my coworkers live in.
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Offline wallzy

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 09:23:51 AM »
I have Frontier & not Verizon. which sucks cause there is no way Frontier will ever bring in Fios.

Offline sully!

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 11:04:33 AM »
there is no way Frontier will ever bring in Fios.


Umm, because FiOS is a Verizon product/service and Frontier is only a DSL/phone provider? Frontier doesn't even have their own video product, they just bundle you with Dish Network to get their version of the triple play. You're absolutely right.

Now for my (seemingly required) response. As several of the Gizmodo commenters noted, this is not a Netflix fee specifically, this is a network peering agreement between Level3 and Comcast. Level3 has a pretty substantial fiber optic network and Comcast's is even larger.

(Read as the Old Spice guy) Take a look at Level3's fiber map, now look at Comcast's. Now back to Level3, now back at Comcast. What do you notice about the two maps? They follow relatively the same paths and interconnect in several places in what's called a "Meet-Me Room" or MMR.

What Level3 does (as well as any other large network service provider, such as Verizon, Qwest, ATT, Cogent, XO, etc.) is peer their network service along the fiber optic network of another provider to provide redundancy and access to services/servers/websites on each others networks, connecting at any one of several of the MMR's located all over the country (and the world). If Level3 was not redundant, can you imagine the millions of dollars a second they would be losing because of downtime? The agreement works both ways too, and Comcast peers their network traffic onto Level3's network (and others) for long haul transport and interconnect. When you make a phone call from the Comcast Digital Voice service, how do you think it reaches someone on a Verizon cell phone? Or if you're a FiOS customer, how do you access a website hosted on a server in Sweden (and now the Seychelles)? How do you connect to the hundreds of other users in a torrent swarm on dozens of ISP's? Network interconnects.

The issue that is being raised here is that because Netflix utilizes Level3 for their ISP, and then also peers that (substantial amount of) traffic on Comcast's fiber network (whether for redundancy or because Comcast covers an area Level3 does not), Level3 is putting an increasing amount of traffic on Comcast's fiber and they'd like them to pay for using it.

I know everyone likes jump up and down and say "F Comcast" and "I can't wait to get FiOS" and before I started working for them, I was probably right there with you. My opinions are now the way they are not just because they sign my paycheck, but because I can fully understand and appreciate the truly complex systems and networks they have in place to try to serve you all better.

So I'd like to ask you all, what do you need to see from Comcast that would change your opinion of them? I'd like you to be brutally honest and tell me what it is that you truly do not like about Comcast and what you all seem to get practically giddy over FiOS for. For all of the negative things that are said about Comcast on this and other forums around the web, when you're getting your 50mb or 100mb internet at the big LAN's you can't stop smiling about how fast it is.

Decepticon stopped by my office back in September(?) to pick up a modem for one of the small LAN's that I couldn't attend and I gave him the nickel tour of our headend and showed him the multiple very large pieces of network equipment that serves all of the Internet traffic in the Harrisburg area, and the stacks and racks of servers/hard drives that serve the On-Demand service, and the brand new multi-million dollar switch (yes, just one switch) that allows hospitals, businesses, and schools to have dedicated point-to-point fiber connections between their buildings that may be hundreds of miles from each other to share data/phone/video service with each of their locations. When I saw those things for the first time, it completely changed my perspective of what a cable company was and I'd hoped it did the same for him (at least a little bit). This is not your father's cable industry by any stretch in the way they operate, and I think if more people understood how they truly operated and how focused they are on improving customer service through any means necessary (as I've witnessed), they'd have a drastically different opinion.

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Offline decepticon

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 11:32:48 AM »
TL....but I did read! 

I just want Fios because it's fast interwebs.  I know it doesn't cost that much less (if at all) than Comcast, but if I am paying out the wazzoo for my tv and internet...I would want the fastest service.  As the Docsis 3 services that are faster than my docsis 2 service (if it's available yet...and I believe you said it was) is at a higher price point, if I had a choice I would go with Fios.  The only glaring issues I have with Comcast is the price and my internet keeps dropping out.  And in Comcasts defense about the internet droppage, I have my own modem which I think may be to blame but I have to get a rental to verify.  And the fact that they updated my DVR box with the Craptiest menu system ever built.  The DVR scheduler blows now and the favorites menu sucks as well.

And yes, I was impressed with the room full of loud fans and lights!  And that was just ONE of the many headends in PA I would assume.
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Offline sully!

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 11:37:45 AM »
Just one of about a half-dozen sites in the Harrisburg area alone. The other (smaller) sites are just referred to as Hubs. They're essentially mini-headends that serve the surrounding areas, and all are fed from the main headend that you saw, and some serve as interconnect points to other larger headends in other cities (York, Lancaster, Lebanon, Chambersburg, etc.).
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Offline Petch

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 12:00:41 PM »
Sully, I thought L3, like Akamai (CDN companies), collocated equipment in ISP data centers to offload their customers traffic from the ISP networks?  If that is the case, and Im assuming it is considering Netflix just renewed their contract with L3 and not Akamai, wouldnt this be a fee for them driving all this traffic through the Comcast data centers on behalf of Netflix?

I speaking from my experience at Akamai.  Although I am not on the .com side of the house (I only work on the .mil side), this is pretty much how it works.  Akamai has contracts with ISP companies (which typically DONT charge Akamai) and they collocate the suite of gear as close of the data centers DNS servers or as close to their Tier 0 as possible.  This gear then caches content and serves it to the customers instead of traversing the ISP's network.

EXAMPLES:

Non-CDN Network, Customer requests traffic from CDN Customer:

Customer request --> ISP's Network --> Network Hops to Closest CDN Server --> Hops back to customers ISP --> ISP's Network --> Customer


CDN Network, Customer requests traffic from CDN Customer:

Customer request --> ISP's Network --> CDN equipment collocated with ISP --> ISP's Network --> Customer


So are you saying they are charging for the "Network Peering" and not the actual Netflix traffic???  Its quite odd that this story came up only a few weeks after Netflix announced the contract signing with L3 and not re-signing Akamai.

Typically there is no charge for a CDN that works as I described, because they are offering a much higher benefit to the ISP by offloading all that cached content instead of using the ISP's network (and interconnects) to retrieve the content. 

Before the flame war starts... Yes, Netflix streaming traffic can be cached..
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 12:08:54 PM by Petch »

Offline {ShadowWX}

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 12:04:38 PM »
Speaking of the Crapty menu for the digital service, ever since they updated my digital box I've had trouble with my audio. Before the update I could have my TV volume set at a comfortable 15 which was perfect for both TV and my gaming systems, but now if I want to watch TV my Volume has to be set to 40 to even hear anything but my games I have to turn back down to 10-15 because otherwise it's way to loud. So, what's up with that? Otherwise I like Comcast's service.
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Offline sully!

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 12:29:55 PM »
Petch, of course I can't speak to any specifics as I am just a peon that does not deal with these things personally, but from my understanding of what's been written (as linked above) and at Wired and the Comcast Voices blog, I don't think Comcast does any caching of content from Level3, it just provides network peering. In many cases, where the incoming and outgoing traffic to/from both providers are nearly equal, it's merely a mutual agreement between the two companies to share the traffic and no money is exchanged. However, Comcast asserts (blog link above) that Level3 will now have a 5:1 ratio of incoming vs. outgoing traffic and Comcast would now like to charge Level3 the same fees it charges other CDN's for asymmetric access.

As with all arguments, both sides are probably exaggerating a bit and the truth lies somewhere in between. I'd like to repeat, however, that from all evidence presented by the linked articles, this is not a fee for Netflix traffic per se, it is a fee for Level3's increased traffic in general. It could have been YouTube or 4Chan or LOLCats, it doesn't matter what the bits represent, it's merely increased bits coming down the tubes and supporting the infrastructure that moves those bits.

Maybe Comcast's arrangement with Akamai is more symmetrical or, Akamai already pays this fee and Level3 is just whining that what they once got for nothing they now have to pay for. You can eat a few grapes for free at the supermarket and no one will care, but if you eat half the bunch you're expected to pay for them.
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Offline The Shoctor

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 02:16:28 PM »
... Akamai already pays this fee and Level3 is just whining that what they once got for nothing they now have to pay for.
This is what I read somewhere and can't seem to find. Akamai paid the fee but not as a Netflix fee, but as the agreement for how much data was peered. And I am sure with all that Akamai was doing Netflix was just another drop in the bucket for them and this is just trying to get people to be like FU Comcast!

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Offline vincegun

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 04:17:46 PM »
I generally DO like Comcast's service and as the only cable ISP (also in the area that I know of) that gives a 250gb total cap per month, that kind of tips my hat in their favor. I also know that I've gone over the cap more than a few times and I haven't gotten any notifications about it. That's pretty cool, in my opinion.

What I DON'T like, and I know it's an issue for many people, is that I can't pay for just a few cable channels that I want. I know that has nothing to do with internet despite being able to download what I want, but it's just something that bugs me. I'd gladly pay a few extra $$ a month for the maybe 5 channels that I'd actually watch. I don't know if there's some technical hurdle that would have to be overcome to offer a choice like that, but yeah. Would be neat.

Comcast is decent, in my opinion. A little pricey, but decent. I didn't bring the link up to say I'm for or against anything as I'm just a customer and there's no way I'd be able to get all the details from both companies, but I wanted to bring it up to you all just to see the responses, especially from Sully.

I'm going to have to side with Aldius, in that it's B.S. that they can't run a cable to his current residence in MD. I don't know the specifics, someone would have to drop a line to him.
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Offline zx2slow

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 05:07:40 PM »
I think we all can agree this is somehow completely Sullys fault.
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Offline vincegun

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 06:07:46 PM »
Actually, yes. Yes, let's do that. We'll replace the article on Giz with a big ol' banner proclaiming that it's Sully's fault. The end.
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Offline The Shoctor

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Re: Uh?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 06:52:18 PM »
I think we all can agree this is somehow completely Sullys fault.
QFT

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